Tête-à-Tête-Tête

Since these guys are more interested in baseball than the business of the Senate, I say appoint them all to the MLB commission & let’s get us a Senate that will do the job they were hired for.

P.S. Like upholding the 4th Amendment…

…as far as the 4th Amendment is concerned…I dont think anything was seized…maybe coercefully volunteered. Although there were threats, no one was actually subpoenaed that I can remember.

As far as recruiting Congress into MLB…you couldnt take them without GWB kicking and screaming directly behind “Wait for me!!”

Thats the job he really wanted, he just had to settle for president of the United States of America because he couldnt get elected to MLB’s commissioner seat.

Check the link on the 4th Amendment as it relates to the FISA expansion (that is to say as it is undermined by the Senate’s spinelessness on the FISA expansion)

As to GWB - hell yeah! Take one for the team Mr. Selig! It’ll be easier to rebuild MLB in the aftermath than it will Iraq.

#2 is the one that really stands out to me.

Where are all the (ahem) people screaming that our constitution has been shredded and our rights are being eroded* have been eerily silent when congress publicly hounds a PRIVATE CITIZEN WHO HASN’T BEEN CHARGED WITH ANYTHING AT ALL & committee members berate someone and basically hint that they’re a liar. Where are all the ‘big brother’ charges? Where are the folks who have been wailing because we taped a conversation between Mahmud in Cincinnatti and Muhammad in Bali but are basically silent when it comes to a congressional committee debating over whether an MRI of someone’s butt reveals a bruise or an abscess?

Clemens wasn’t called before the committee, he basically demanded to be there, but……is anyone else uncomfortable with members of congress publicly rebuking the character of a private citizen (he isn’t a tobacco executive, after all) based on 100% heresay? And if it WAS HGH, the statute of limitations has passed & therefore there wasn’t even a crime? And since Clemens hadn’t testified under oath until yesterday, there was no perjury, either?

It almost seems as though…….it……is….politics. I wonder what the reaction would be if the GOP were still in control.

* (has that phrase been trademarked,yet? I hear it more often than Budweiser jingles)

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smijer, any chance you could add something like a live comment preview? I seem to lead the league in screwed up text, after all.

I downloaded a long overdue WP upgrade this weekend, but I haven’t had time to install it. When I do, however, I will be sure to add the comment preview plugin that you recommended!

And if it WAS HGH, the statute of limitations has passed & therefore there wasn’t even a crime? And since Clemens hadn’t testified under oath until yesterday, there was no perjury, either?

That is quite correct…but yesterdays scenario did make it perjury, …for at least one of them.

Where are all the (ahem) people screaming that our constitution has been shredded and our rights are being eroded*

Probably just got tired of howling at the moon.

There was some kind of questionnaire my wife was filling out while gathering all of our tax related crap that asked the question, “Do you mind if the IRS talks directly to your tax preparer?”

WTF? The IRS can come into my house and hit me on the head with a hammer if they so take a notion and they are asking me if I mind if they talk directly to my tax preparer? Why would they give a damn if I minded or not?

Do I mind if you take me to an undisclosed location and pour water up my nose until I tell you what you want to hear? Well, I would prefer you didn’t but exactly what kind of say do I have in the matter?

Do I mind if you listen in to my private conversations and open my mail? Well, if I had a choice in the matter I would rather you didn’t but why ask me?

Back to steriods. Words cannot fully describe how much I don’t give a damn if ball players juice. I DO NOT CARE! And congress just comes off looking like the pack of clowns that they really are when they pretend to give a damn.

And if steroids would enhance their performance then taking them should be mandatory.

Having a son that has hung huge posters of his favorite MLB players on his bedroom wall ever since I can remember…I can relate to why we dont want to send the message to our youth that it takes steroids to make it in MLB…or, to put it more succinctly, that it takes drugs to make it in life.

These kids read their favorite players’ practice regimine, warm ups, exercises…and try to fulfill them w/ the hopes that they will ascend to the greatest stage on the planet.

I can understand this. But, whether through good intenetions or selfish ones, Congress has already succeeded in getting Bud Selig to implement the toughest sanctions on steroids in any professional sport.

The problem I see now is grandstanding. They (Congress) see the media attention that they are being given in this conflict…and they are not letting it slip by.

More credibility would have been gained from this inquiry by not attacking one name (Clemens)…but everyone implecated.

Good ole roger don’t seem to concerned about his own family…since he is willing to throw his own wife under the bus. Roger needs to come clean and admit it! this whole ordeal has gotten too far but since congress is involved now he is looking at some serious possible perjury charges. He is guilty and needs to come out and save his legacy!

Bryan,
At least you’re keeping an open mind on the matter.

I hope Roger takes the Clinton advice of “DENY! DENY! DENY!” How can they prove anything?

Nothing makes me sicker than the Congress. If there was justice in the world every damn one of them would be behind bars for shit a lot worse than juicing.

Man, RW…I hear ya…but you still have to admit that most people that watched this witch-hunt…on Rogers’ request I might add…have still come away with the feeling that Roger Perjured himself…and he did throw his wife out there knowing that the bus was on the way.

The camera panned on her during a lot of the discussion…and her “statement” that he read attempted to lean the court of public opinion in his direction…not hers.

What does “she” have to lose?? “I” am the one that has won 7 Cy-Youngs….not her…That is what I and most people gathered from it.

If there was justice in the world every damn one of them would be behind bars for shit a lot worse than juicing.

Easy now…we are talking MLB…not NFL or NBA.

Undeniably a witch hunt, Kenny Rogers even said today that there here hundreds of others that were not targeted. I just wish they would leave them alone and let my headache go away. I can only handle so much of colin cowterd going on and on. But what else is there..NBA?? At this is more interesting than NBA. I think taking advise from the Clintons may be good, lets get James Carville involved, he would bring a good ole cajun case of whoop ass on the hill like they aint seen in 15 years!
bryan

I dont know if I want the Rajun’ Cajun’ getting involved in MLB…but it would make for another great blog…hehehe.

But what else is there..NBA?? At this is more interesting than NBA.

Oh yeah, in other MLB news…pitchers and catchers report today…except for Pettitte who has been given an extra few days for….well hell, I dont know!

Booyah!!

but you still have to admit that most people that watched this witch-hunt…on Rogers’ request I might add…have still come away with the feeling that Roger Perjured himself…and he did throw his wife out there knowing that the bus was on the way.

I do?
Who got the opinions of “most people”? Was it one of those scientific ESPN polls?

Look, I have no idea who is lying. Some serious questions are out there that don’t explain things:
1. Why would McNamee name Clemens if he really didn’t inject him, especially after he was correct in every other person he named.
2. Why would Clemens deny so vehemently if he were really guilty, to the point of requesting a trip to congress so that he’d open himself up to perjury charges (as you noted, he didn’t have to even appear…..it was his decision). Why would he do that if he were guilty? Is “his ego” really a valid answer?
3. If you were Roger Clemens and you really were innocent, how would you have handled the instance of your being named in the Mitchell report? Would it be any different than what Clemens has done?
4. How do we know that Clemens really didn’t tell Pettitte about HGH? Then again, since my wife & I have had 4 arguments in the last 10 days over things I told her that she misremembered (every instance was a moment of being unable to recall to the convenience of her point of view, go figure!) how sure am I that Andy Pettitte would accurately recall a conversation from 9 years ago? One that Clemens’ wife refutes, as well?
5. Why would Clemens’ wife tell the truth if he’s guilty? Then again, why would she open herself up to perjury, as well?

No. One. Knows.
We’re all guessing.

Thing is, most Clemens haters think he’s lying & most Clemens fans think he’s being railroaded. And now Waxman obviously got some internal polls on what people thought about his performance….it’s almost as if it’s political.

Oh,yeah. It is.

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I saw maybe 7 minutes of it. The part I saw was someone asking McNamee how he could claim an abscess on Clemens’ buttocks when no other physician or employee of the Blue Jays, or any MRI taken, showed one (and we’re talking about the guy who was the top pitcher in baseball at the time, so there WERE people looking at the injury) and no one else on record - and there was a definite paper trail of his bruise at the time - saw the abscess. McNamee’s answer, after looking befuddles, was “none of those people injected Roger Clemens with an illegal substance”.

I got up & walked out. Didn’t need to see any more. If THAT
was his best answer, he obviously was making up the part about the abscess from the clear air. Not that it means Clemens’ had never used steroids, though.

One thing’s for sure: Clemens lost about a quarter-mile on his fastball every year during the time he was supposedly taking ‘roids. He became a better pitcher because he developed a split-finger fastball. So, if he did take, there was no noticable uptick in his arm-speed, as opposed to Barry Bonds & Sammy Sosa suddenly increasing their bat speed.

Who got the opinions of “most people”? Was it one of those scientific ESPN polls?

Thing is, most Clemens haters think he’s lying & most Clemens fans think he’s being railroaded.

What scientific poll did that come from?

I have not taken any scientific polls nor will I ever until the day I die probably….but I have spoken to people…and heard on, yes, ESPN, FOX Sportsouth, Jim Rome, Mike and Mike, friends, family etc… that most people actually like Roger Clemens, as opposed to Barry Bonds, and that they feel the same way I do. I dont want Barry Bonds going down in flames alone if Clemens is actually guilty too. That wouldnt be fair would it? I mean we all saw what happened when untouchable Mark McGwire pleaded the 5th….and what happened to the HOF when Palmeiro wagged his finger at them? He couldnt even get a commercial selling cars in his own home town.

Clemens did what he did out of vanity. To try and persuade the court of public opinion. He loves being the guest speaker at big social events. He loves being the honorary invitee to whatever function he is attending this week. And he also loves to hear people call him things like hero and possibly even best ever.

If he didnt go to and shout his innocence from the highest mountain history shows that public opinion would have suggested that he would have been seen as tainted and his records dubious and dont forget about his possible loss of induction into the HOF. Also, steroids dont only improve bat speed…they aid in the healing process which would be especially important for a hard throwing older baseball player who is also an innings eater.

You ask very good questions here, most of which I think I already answered, or at least gave an opinion to earlier on in the post or during the comments. The question that nobody can really answer is motive. What was McNamees motive behind this? The only motive McNamee had at this point was to finally tell the truth for once or his tail would go to jail. He also had guaze and syringes for Chuck Knoblauch too but hasnt turned them over because he didnt have to. Knoblauch answered honestly.

So did Pettitte….so what was Pettittes motive? I can understand how you might not be able to remember certain coversations that you may have had several years ago…but this was not just some conversation. Pettitte is a guy who grew up with a Roger Clemens poster on his wall. He idolized him growing up. They became best friends and their families even vacationed together. Now, if your childhood idol and best friend in the world told you during a conversation that he was using steroids, HGH, Marijuanna…whatever…I think you would remember that.

I know I would and I dont even remember what I had for dinner last night…j/k.

but I have spoken to people…and heard on, yes, ESPN, FOX Sportsouth, Jim Rome, Mike and Mike, friends, family etc… that most people actually like Roger Clemens, as opposed to Barry Bonds, and that they feel the same way I do.

Anecdotal.

Go to NYC & take a random poll of a thousand people there & it’s likely that you’ll find few who care for Reba McIntire or Brad Paisley, whereas much of the rest of the country is more in line.

If you’re getting anything other than data from ESPN, you’re just as likely to be reading an op-ed page, jadarm. Those folks are journalism/broadcasting majors who bring their personal feelings to the mix just like anyone else. I can tell you that Mike Wilbon, for example, has uttered some of the most ignorant phrases that I’ve heard this side of Cynthia McKinney

Clemens did what he did out of vanity.

Now, you’re reading his mind and putting forth his intentions.

What was McNamees motive behind this? The only motive McNamee had at this point was to finally tell the truth for once or his tail would go to jail.

I’m still trying to figure out the motive for the gal who charged ‘rape’ against the Duke Lacrosse players. But, I do note that McNamee is telling the truth “this time”, as opposed to all those other times.

So did Pettitte….so what was Pettittes motive?

Pettitte is the holy grail in this. With that thing, it’s a huge question.

Mind you, I’m not schilling for Clemens, only playing devil’s advocate & stating that we ALL are just guessing.

Also, steroids dont only improve bat speed…they aid in the healing process which would be especially important for a hard throwing older baseball player who is also an innings eater.

Again, if steroids were a definite, arm speed would be a by-product, would it not? I mean, if the guy was juicing, why was he the only one who didn’t get a boost in performance, but rather ONLY in stamina (and everyone on record admits that the guy had a workout routine second only to Nolan Ryan, which they attributed to his leg strength/stamina).

Now, you’re reading his mind and putting forth his intentions.

No more than you or anyone else can.

Mind you, I’m not schilling for Clemens, only playing devil’s advocate & stating that we ALL are just guessing.

Exactly sir. I, nor anyone else, can do much more than that. Its just my experience that when there is smoke that there is usually fire.

Duke was an exception to the rule…the rule being what has been associated recently w/ MLB…and a possible motive for the Duke case is easy to consider…if you weigh what happened and who was involved.

Like I said earlier, you bring up good questions…but, to me anyway, the overriding questions seems to lie at what Roger wants us to believe…and why.

…and what McNamee wants us to believe….and why.

The history of credibility does not support McNamee at this point, however, the testimony of everyone else invloved and the evidence that has been presented thus far does not support Clemens.

My small weight on the scales of public opinion tend to lead to McNamee at this time…and yes, I do like Roger.

But if he is guilty of it…then why should he be any different from Bonds, Canseco, Knoblauch, Pettite, or Palmiero?

RW, thank you for bringing science to this thread, even to counter an declaration that was imprecise mainly due to its informality. (yes jadarm, the second half of that sentence is written in your defense.)

One variation of the old saying is that “The plural of anecdote is not data.” And it’s soooo true. For instance, just about everyone I talked to back in January and February was a John Edwards partisan. Obviously I would have been incorrect in asserting that “most people will vote for John Edwards.” It had a lot more to do with the subset of people I was talking to than it did with the voters’ perceptions of John Edwards.

“an declaration”…. well it was going to be “an assertion”. What was that about comment preview?

Eh, I had a buddy at work tell me that he saw one of those ESPN polls that said the majority didn’t believe Clemens. Which, of course, is akin to citing a poll from Bill O’Reilly dot com asking if Keith Olbermann is, indeed, a douche.

Not that any disgruntled Boston fans would vote that Clemens was lying even if the guy was chok-full of sodium pentithal, hooked up to a lie detector machine, had instant MRIs of his brain waves shown on an HD screen and his feet in a pale of water & jumper-cables on the ready to attach at the moment he coughed during an answer, or anything……

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But if he is guilty of it…then why should he be any different from Bonds, Canseco, Knoblauch, Pettite, or Palmiero?

If it came about that he was actually guilty, he’d be treated much worse than them as he’s the pre-eminent pitcher of this generation (top 5 ever, probably) & thus there’s farther for him to fall. Pete Rose will have gotten more sympathy.

But, it took more than “so and so said” before we found out about Bonds, Canseco, Knoblauch, Pettitte, Palmeiro or Rose.

The only motive McNamee had at this point was to finally tell the truth for once or his tail would go to jail.

Looks that way.

He also had guaze and syringes for Chuck Knoblauch too but hasnt turned them over because he didnt have to. Knoblauch answered honestly.

The gauze & syringes are meaningless. W/o chain of custody, they’re less reliable than an online poll. Easy reply from the Clemens camp: we said from day one that Mcnamee injected Clemens with B-12* and Mcnamee admits to owning steroids and HGH, so with 7 years of the so-called ‘evidence’ at his disposal, he could have easily placed the banned substances on the material away from the general public. Doesn’t take Johnnie Cochran to dismiss that one.

* special ‘idiot’ credit goes to the congressman who said that one had to meet strict criteria like alzeihemers or anemia to get b-12 shots. I mean, it’s no secret that b-12 in various forms is beneficial for any number of ailments. (yes, we’re about to try this, ourselves. All parents of autistic kids play the “throw it up against the wall & see if it sticks” game).

Hope to goodness I typed all this correctly…

(yes jadarm, the second half of that sentence is written in your defense.)

Thanks dad!

…and now back to baseball…(how the hell did John Edwards get in this discussion??)

I had a buddy at work tell me that he saw one of those ESPN polls that said the majority didn’t believe Clemens. Which, of course, is akin to citing a poll from Bill O’Reilly dot com asking if Keith Olbermann is, indeed, a douche.

Yes, he is. nuff’ said.

If it came about that he was actually guilty, he’d be treated much worse than them as he’s the pre-eminent pitcher of this generation (top 5 ever, probably) & thus there’s farther for him to fall. Pete Rose will have gotten more sympathy

…and Barry is not the pre-eminent batter of this generation…or perhaps, of all time??

But, you know, to put this to rest…what you, smijer, and everyone else has yet to answer is…what does McNamee have to gain by “outing” Clemens??

Did Pettitte deny??

Did Knoblauch deny??

Did Clemens own wife deny??

…what did McNamee have to gain by outing someone who was innocent and what did Clemens have to gain by denying everything completely…just as most everyone else has done before him.

…and smijer…Plz leave John Edwards outta this!

…and Barry is not the pre-eminent batter of this generation…or perhaps, of all time??

And he was recently - for all intents and purposes - cut from his team, is unemployed and is far and away the most hated sports figure in America. As his trial moves forward, it’ll get even worse.

what does McNamee have to gain by “outing” Clemens??

No idea. I’d be guessing if I typed anything. Just as it’d be a guess to say the answer of why Clemens demanded to be heard was “his ego” instead of someone wanting to clear their name.

BTW, Waxman REALLY must’ve gotten some bad polling numbers. My, that was a quick reversal, wasn’t it?

Interesting.

But, you know, to put this to rest…what you, smijer, and everyone else has yet to answer is…what does McNamee have to gain by “outing” Clemens??

I’m assuming that you understand that your implied appeal to majority opinion (itself a fallacy) was grounded only in anecdotal evidence and have left it aside. That’s fine.

I believe that this other line of argument, quoted above, represents an argumentum ad ignorantiam - that is an appeal to ignorance. If so, it is also fallacious. Consider a reformulation of it as such:

1. One motive McNamee could have had is rooted in his knowledge of Clemens’ steroid use.
2. You cannot show that McNamee had any other motive for “outing” Clemens.
3. Therefore McNamee had knowledge of Clemens’ steroid use.

The two faults that undermine this line of reasoning are that 1) You could not show McNamee’s motive either - you have only suspicion, and 2) other motives could exist without us being able to show them. Since you have not accounted for those possible motives, then we are not obliged to assume your suspicion is correct and they are incorrect.

Since you don’t want to hear about John Edwards, I guess I’ll have to quote an article about the argument ad ignoratiam that uses one of your heroes as an example:

Also, as a hypothetical example of an “argument from personal incredulity,” defined above, suppose someone were to argue:

I cannot imagine any way for Michael Jackson to have slept with young boys without having sex with them.

Therefore he must be guilty of the crime of statutory rape.

Merely because the person making the argument cannot imagine how scenario “A” might have happened does not necessarily mean that the person’s preferred conclusion (scenario “B”) is correct. As with other forms of the argument from ignorance, the arguer in this instance has arrived at a conclusion without any evidence supporting the preferred hypothesis, merely for lack of being able to imagine the alternative.

The same principles of logic apply to the civil law, although the required burdens of proof generally are different. As well, these principles of logic apply to the introduction of a given component of a legal case by either a complainant or a defendant. That is, the mere lack of evidence in favor of a proposition put forth by a party in a legal proceeding (e.g., the assertion “she couldn’t have left the house and returned in time to do X…” is offered without evidence in support) would not properly be taken as evidence in favor of an alternative explanation (e.g., “she did leave the house and return in time to do X…”).

I didnt initially want to post about one of your heros, John Edwards, or one of mine in MJ.

But since you cant talk about real baseball players then I will tell my thoughts on MJ.

I think people are out to get him and tear him down, to get what money he has left if they can somehow get their hands on it…now, at the same time. These idiot parents knew the stories that were out there in circulation about MJ…true or false…so what?

What the hell were they doing letting their kids go over there in the first place? Thats just a judgement call (and a bad one in my opinion) but one that everyone makes for his or herself.

A judgement call that everyone across the country is currently making regarding the Clemens and McNamee testimony.

I didnt say lock Roger up and throw away the key…but just because they give statues in his likeness away to superior TX pitchers, that he has won more Cy-Youngs in the history of the game, …and so on and so on…he shouldnt be treated any differently than Barry Bonds…just because we like Roger better.

Its my opinion and I have stated reasons to back up my opinion…but go and google polls Clemens McNamee and tell me that most people agree that Roger is telling the truth…and not just in selected areas such as his homestate of TX.

In one breath everyone is asking why are they doing this to Roger…but the next argument they make starts off something like well, Roger lobbied to get his story out…so he must be teling the truth.

Who has the most credibility at this point? Pettitte, of course?

Now, if Rogers wife was injected with HGH, which both he and she have confirmed, Why would she think HGH would help her? And why would she ask McNamee to inject her (and Pettitte to approach McNamee in the same manner) if they didnt already know something? In which case, if she had a prescription for it, produce it, …if she did then why not have a doctor do it…but if she didnt?

You could not show McNamee’s motive either - you have only suspicion.

No, I stated his motive clearly above…the chance that he could go to jail under false testimony.

…Now, why did he give up the details on Pettitte?…and then Pettitte confirmed?

…Now, why did he give up the details on Knoblauch?…and then Knoblauch confirmed?

…Now, why did he give up the details on Clemens wife? (his own wife)…and then she confirmed?

What did Clemems have to gain further by giving up Pettittes best friend, his own trainees colleagues, and his employers own wife?

What does Pettitte have to gain? What does McNamee have to gain? What does Knoblauch have to gain?…

…Now, …what does Clemens have to lose?

Now, if Rogers wife was injected with HGH, which both he and she have confirmed, Why would she think HGH would help her?

HGH helps the body metabolize better & thus makes fat lost easier. Many pro ‘rasslers are so huge because of anabolic steroids but look like bodybuilders because they’re also taking HGH. I could link to many suspensions of late that show massive HGH usage, but I don’t think I’ll get too many detractors on my assertions.

but go and google polls Clemens McNamee and tell me that most people agree that Roger is telling the truth…

See: New Hampshire, Barack Obama, huge poll lead.

See: New Hampshire, Barack Obama, huge poll lead.

Funny.

Did you hear about the picture?