Tête-à-Tête-Tête

Will all due respect to my buddy the Baseball Crank, this is yet another nail into the coffin of MLB’s ‘purity’. No way can the Florida Marlins, Tampa Bay Rays, Minnesota Twins, Oakland A’s or KC Royals (among others) compete against teams with unlimited payrolls like the Yankees, Mets & Red Sox.

When each yearly big-name free agent signs among the same 6 to 8 teams, something’s gotta give.

Idk, It just seems to me that all these teams want to build baseball dynasty’s and from what i’ve seen, they’re not working out very well.

I really hope this trade doesnt affect the NL. What I do know, is that since this ’steriods’ thing has come into play, and we all know who’s been using it, I think the AL will start to even out more, instead of making the NL look like the back up leauge.

Emkay…so every fifth day, we’re screwed. But it’s ok, we still have our friendship.

That was in no way shape or form relevant, but still, this doesn’t look very well for the Bravos.

Actually, it might now be that bad..
Santana’s career vs. Braves: 0-1, 3.02 ERA in two starts, 12 hits and four runs in 11-2/3 inn.

Santana’s postseason career: 1-3 with 3.97 ERA in 11 games (five starts). He went more than five innings in two of his five starts during the ‘03, ‘04 and ‘06 postseasons.

Braves vs. Santana:

Chipper 3-for-4, Diaz 5-for-9 with 1 homer, McCann 1-for-3 with 1 homer, Teixeira 4-for-17 with 1 homer, Francoeur 0-for-3.

Like RW…I consider myself to be a purist. But I do like what the wildcard has done for the smaller market teams. MLB had 79.5 million in attendance this last season and revenue went from 1.2 billion to 5.8 billion since the wildcard, realignment, and the luxury tax came into effect back in the 90’s. Colorado also made it into the playoffs and went on to the World Series. They didnt win but the Diamondbacks and Marlins (twice) have won in recent memory against some “super budget” teams.

I think the AL will start to even out more, instead of making the NL look like the back up leauge.

I am not so sure that the steroids issue was more of an AL thing than a NL thing. Most of the AL players received their PED’s from Kirk Radomski, a former bat boy, equipment manager, and clubhouse assistant for the NL Mets.

Also, since the 02′ All Star game ended in a tie there were new rules implemented to provide incentives for each league to keep that from happening again. Now the league that wins the All Star game will have home field advantage during the World Series.

I understand the fairness of that rule…((if)) both leagues actually played by the same rules. By the time NL pitchers make it halfway through the season they are worn down. Sure, I realize that every 9th guy they face is most likely a pitcher but if they are running low on fuel in a particular game chances are that they will still stay in the game until they make it to their turn in the lineup where someone can pinch hit for them. The AL doesnt worry about such things.

True, most of the big money budgets are in the AL right now with a few exceptions but that only makes matters worse. With homefield advantage in the World Series comes home field advantage in the All Star game…seems like a never ending cycle. I dont see how coming down hard on steroids is going to change things all that much especially when you consider that no one can still test accurately for HGH.

hey didnt win but the Diamondbacks and Marlins (twice) have won in recent memory against some “super budget” teams.

Exceptions.
Each time, both teams were shortly dismantled due to salary concerns and they went right back to the basement. The Marlins won it all in 2003. As of today, their current payrolls is less than ten million dollars.
The whole team.

They will not compete against teams like the Mets this season. They can not.

The team in ‘03? The lineup was
1. Juan Pierre: gone to the Dodgers, made $7.5 millions last year.
2. Jose Castillo:2b for the mets, made $5.75 million last year.
3. Pudge Rodriguez: $10.6 million for the Tigers last season
4. Miguel Cabrera: Traded to the Tigers (for one reason, money). Made $7.4 mil last year & will be the huge free agent next season.
5. Derrek Lee: $13.8 mil for the Cubs last season.
6. Mike Lowell: signed a $37.5 million deal.
7. Juan Encarnacion: Career likely over due to injury but made $5 mil last year.
8. Alex Gonzalez: Made $3.5 mil for the Reds last yr.

The pitching staff?
Brad Penny: $8 mil last year
Josh Beckett: $6.7 mil last year
Dontrelle Willis: Signed a 3 yr/$29 mil deal with Detroit.

–

The Marlins can only hope to win it all every 5 years or so & then have four years of horrible teams and crowds of

…and crowds of less than 3,000 people attending the games.

That is bad for baseball.

It’s bad when you know going into this season AND next season AND the following season that - barring unforeseen trades - teams like the Royals, Marlins, Royals, A’s and Pirates will not come close to winning the world series, primarily becase none of those teams will have a single player making more than $10 million per season & therefore will have position matchups against teams filled with superstars.

If I were a Florida Marlin fan, I’d feel disgusted knowing that my team didn’t care enough about its fans to even TRY to compete for the next 2 to 3 seasons & just decided to throw in the towel & try for 4 to 5 years from now (and then dismantle the team, yet again, after that).

Well, you have to remember that when the Braves started, they started with a 20 MM payroll…granted, that was small…but oh, have times changed since then.

The Marlins have won two championships with a payroll of slightly upwards of 49 MM in 1997 and 63 MM 2003, less than their opponents payroll of 89 MM ( 97′Indians)and the 152.3 MM (03′Yankees).

The Bosox in their 04′ championships’ payroll was 135.4 MM roughly (as opposed to the Cardinals 75.6 MM), with another championship last year sporting a 143 MM as well versus the Rockies 53 MM.

The Yankees last championship was in 2000, where they sported a $190 MM payroll against the NL Mets versus their $100 MM payroll.

The point I’m trying to get across is that money can’t buy championships, it can help to potentially build dynasty but it’s all about who’s in the front office and who’s hot.

Money doesn’t buy any kind of success, performance does.

You can spend 25 MM on an A-ROD type during the offseason, but who’s to say that he won’t get injured, perform poorly during the playoffs, or any other off the field disturbance for that matter?

The Yankees’ last championship was in 2000, but yet they had the largest payroll that year at 190 MM…yet this year, at almost four times the Rockies payroll, they opposed the Red Sox in the ALCS and lost. The Rockies ultimately wound up representing the NL in the World Series against the BoSox.

The wildcard has made baseball scary and lucrative at the same time. It’s just all about perfomance, who’s hot, who’s not, and just balancing your roster and adjusting to turnover and payroll to as close to perfect as possible.

The Marlins can only hope to win it all every 5 years or so & then have four years of horrible teams and crowds of 3,000

Well… if the Marlins did not continue to blow up their teams instead of building on their success, maybe people would actually show up to the ballpark to watch a team that they can “own” and identify with.

As for Davey’s comment:

Actually, it might now be that bad..
Santana’s career vs. Braves: 0-1, 3.02 ERA in two starts, 12 hits and four runs in 11-2/3 inn.

Umm… first of all, two starts is a completely and utterly meaningless sample size. But even if it wasn’t… those numbers are still quite good.

And the playoff numbers:

Santana’s postseason career: 1-3 with 3.97 ERA in 11 games (five starts). He went more than five innings in two of his five starts during the ‘03, ‘04 and ‘06 postseasons.

3.97? Also not bad, especially in the playoffs facing against the best teams in baseball. But again, a very meaningless sample size.

Chipper 3-for-4, Diaz 5-for-9 with 1 homer, McCann 1-for-3 with 1 homer, Teixeira 4-for-17 with 1 homer, Francoeur 0-for-3.

Okay… you posted numbers that totaled 36 at-bats for five players. Not one of those individual lines, or the group line all together, mean anything.

My point was that it’s much better to be a team that’s in the hunt annually and thus viable for a championship every year than a team that does win it every once in a while, but which sucks otherwise. Throughout the 90s, the Toronto Blue Jays won two world series & the Braves won one. Now, would you have rather been a fan of the Jays, whose team was horrible for many of those years - below .500 for four straight years - or the Braves, who were in the hunt (but often, failing at the end) with practically every GAME played?

Better example: Florida won it all in ‘03 & as you stated, the Yanks last won it all in ‘00. Which fans have been treated to better baseball & have been able to have a stake in just about every game played since then? The Yanks & BoSox are the favs in the AL to win the pennant while the Marlins will be darn lucky to win 65 games this season.

A payroll cannot guarantee a championship (although, the ‘97 Marlin squad was a rent-a-mob that got the job done…go check out that roster which was turned over a few weeks after winning the series) or even get you to the playoffs (Mest, 27) but it can pretty much put you in place to do both.

The Yankees WILL WIN 20 more games than the Marlins this season, based almost entirely on their roster, most of which was purchased.

That’s not good for baseball. Unless the Marlins use their salary savings to sign a top free-agent, their fans have nothing to look forward to for quite a while.

I’d be willing to wager $20 that the Yankees odds to make the playoffs this season are much better than the Rockies.

if the Marlins did not continue to blow up their teams instead of building on their success, maybe people would actually show up to the ballpark to watch a team that they can “own” and identify with.

I agree, but their own stated that he lost 10 million in 1997 because of the salaries of all those all-stars that it took to win the series. Now, you can or can not take him at his word (those guys always say that baseball teams lose money) and it’s a good argument to make that teams will be enriched the FOLLOWING YEAR after winning it all (merchandise & attendance), but he stated that they were hemorraging cash and had to dismantle.

I know they lost Beckett, Pudge & Penny due to salaries after winning in ‘03. Heck, even when they were a good team, their attendance was ‘iffy’ due to all the afternoon thundershowers in Miami.

Yes, Dave, I realize they are good. And of course it’s just a sample size. But, can it honestly hurt to try and be as optimistic as possible with the best pitcher in the game going to my team’s rivals?

I dont think that a MLB team will be viable in FL anyway…no matter how competitive they may be or how many championships they bring home.

This past season Tampa Bay and Florida finished 29th and 30th respectively out of the 30 MLB teams.

07′ attendance:
Tampa Bay 1,389,031 w/ an avg. of 17,148 per game. (29th)
Florida 1,370,511 w/ an avg. of 16,919 per game. (30th)

06′ attendance:
Tampa Bay 1,369,031 w/ an avg. of 16,901 per game. (29th)
Florida 1,165,120 w/ an avg. of 14,384 per game. (30th)

05′ attendance:
Florida 1,823,388 w/ an avg. of 22,792 per game. (28th)
Tampa Bay 1,124,189 w/ an avg. of 14,052 per game. (30th)

…Need I go on?

The Marlins dont really have a choice but to rebuild after a good winning season…much less a championship one.