Tête-à-Tête-Tête

It’s possible Huckabee meant “the commandments according to Jesus”, where Jesus said (I paraphrase) the first
commandment is to love God with all your heart and soul and mind and the second is like unto it, to love your neighbor as yourself.

kitketcham is correct.

Do a google search on “jesus greatest commandments” and you’ll find what Jesus said. Any Christian who has read the word of Jesus knows this & what Huckabee was saying. This should be titled “The left Doesn’t know the bible”. And I type as someone who will vote for about any Republican other than Huckabee.

There are plenty of openings out there to use as a hammer against Christians who don’t vote for Democrats (known on the left as “fundies”), but this isn’t one. This post is really wrong.

kitketcham is right, but Huckabee is wrong. The “second commandment according to Jesus” is love thy neighbor as thyself. Huckabee was probably trying to recall that one, but he came up with the golden rule, instead - do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I tried to make that point in the post, but somehow it seems to have gotten missed. I even predicted that Fox News would probably have everyone thinking that Jesus’ “second greatest” commandment was the golden rule. It isn’t.

You might differentiate, but it’s hard to argue that Jesus did:

“So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.” — Matt 7:12

“Jesus replied: ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments. — Matt 22:37-40

Mike, I would never deny that Jesus said both of these things, and that one of them he called a “commandment”. What Mike Huckabee was wrong about was that he did not realize which one of those two things was referred to as a commandment.

So, we have three sets of “ten commandments” from the Old Testament, we have the New Testament “Greatest” and “Second Greatest” commandments from Jesus, and then we have the golden rule, which is not part of any of the numbered commandments, Old Testament or New, Moses or Jesus.

Yes, Jesus did have a commandment that was somewhat more similar in character to the golden rule than the OT 2nd commandments. No, that doesn’t mean that Mike Huckabee did not make a mistake about what that commandment was.

I think that you guys are being shown that even a good number of “liberal” Christians are saying that you’re a bit off base w/this one. It appears to be an overreach as a means to say “look, unless the eeeeevil Fox News says that Huckabee is wrong and gives it as much coverage as Dean got, their is a double-standard at play as evidenced by Howard Dean’s gaffe & the coverage”. Am I reading that right?

BTW, I’m throwing the ‘anecdotal’ flag:

And I’ve seen more comments at the dailykos that were in line with the “Bush=Hitler”, “It’s the fault of the jews” or “Screw them” mode than that of your run-of-the-mill lefty who is fighting for the Democrats to win and leaving thoughtful responses. Empasis on “I’ve seen” because I really only read the ones that are sent via link & most of those are from righty sites playing the “look at what THEY said” game. So, my pool of data is pretty small, even though it’s spanned over a long period of time.

f you ask them, you will find that they want their marriages legal, and they will also tell you that they would like to avoid doing the same toward others in the gay community at all costs.

You know I’m for civil unions, smijer, but the bible is crystal clear when it comes to homosexuality. There is no ‘gray’ area, so it’s not unusual for any preacher of almost any denomination to cite its entries on homosexuality. Or divorce. Or adultery. It’s clearly in the text. What, they should use the Andrew Sullivan/Madonna method of smorgasbord religion?

Whoops, I screwed up something. It should say after “the ‘anecdotal’ flag: “I think I have heard more fundie preachers speaking out against the Golden Rule than for it; mainly because of their fascination with gay marriage.”

RW - something like that. And don’t get me wrong - I don’t have anything against liberal Christians. But, some of them have gotten this one wrong - likely making the same mistake Huckabee did. They are right in a sense, because it’s more likely that Huckabee meant *that* second commandment than the OT second commandment, but he still made a mistake. Anywhoo…

P.S., by the way, the Bible does mention homosexuality. It doesn’t mention gay marriage. And, for what it’s worth, some people think that at least some of those mentions of homosexuality meant something other than the classic same-sex loving relationship that we are talking about today. In fact, at least some of them probably did mean homosexuality qua pagan ritual or qua battlefield rape. The rest - well, I think it’s clear that Paul didn’t care much for it, and I think that Old Testament God didn’t like it much either. Jesus? Never expressed an opinion.

Well, keep in mind that we CHRISTIANS talk about Jesus’ commandments before we discuss the ones that Moses brought down. Yeah, we all revere them & I have a medallion of them hanging from my rear view window, but the most important commandments to us are the ones that Jesus noted. We’re not Jews following the ‘old law’, after all. I can understand why you’d point out Huckabee’s language, but - as you can see - Christians on the left & right hear “second commandment” and our first thought is the one Jesus said, not #2 on the list of ten.

I’m no shilling for Huckabee, I have no love for him & he seems to be a big-brother Republican (it’s great that he’s lost weight & you know I’m a health freak, but it’s my right as an American to eat what I want without Mike Huckabee getting the government involved in my choices of food….it’s the libertarian in me that abhors large government Republicans, I guess) I’m just relaying what we Christians have in mind. Again, it appears that it’s not politically motivated, either. I mean, when left & right agree on this, it can’t be a coincidence.

Yeah, you can point out the part about the ‘golden rule’, but this is not a big deal. This is on par with someone accidentally saying “Osama” instead of “Obama”…maybe. I knew what Huckabee was saying as soon as I read the entry in the quote.

heheh — Christians may feel more bound by the NT 2 than the OT 10, but it’s the OT 10 that certain usual suspects are trying to get hung up in all the kiddie’s school rooms, as many government buildings as they can, and that they plant in their front yards… But, you know how that goes.

BTW, I knew what Dean was talking about when he said that Job was his favorite book in the New Testament - still doesn’t make Job a book of the New Testament.

P.S., by the way, the Bible does mention homosexuality. It doesn’t mention gay marriage.

Well, it doesn’t mention gun rights either, because it wasn’t an issue of the day.

some people think that at least some of those mentions of homosexuality meant something other than the classic same-sex loving relationship that we are talking about today.

Hey, whatever makes ‘em sleep better at night.
It’s no different, based on my reading, than Newt Gingrich being on wife #3….God doesn’t like it. Period. It won’t keep someone out of heaven, so I don’t understand the big obsession with it (personally, I think it’s the ‘ick’ factor when it comes to gay men, but that’s my opinion). But, it is in the text and therefore it’s not out of bounds for reverends to bring it up in a sermon. I’d never heard a single word about it in church until the last few years, to be honest. Most of my life the preaching has been “fire & brimstone” & the like.

I’m on record (for a long time) as saying that modern Christianity spends too much time condemning homosexuality when a good number of their flock are busy getting divorces & committing adultery, stuff that Jesus spent a WHOLE LOTTA time covering. The ratio is really outta whack. But, alls I’m saying is that it’s in the bible & it’s pretty clear. Call it battlefield rape or prison rape or whatever, it’s non-negotiable. That said, even at its worst it’s a forgivable sin, just like Ronald Reagan marrying Nancy even though Jane Wyman is still around (hello, adultery in the eyes of the allmighty) so it’s just a case of someone pointing to a section that appeases their interests & saying “AHA!”. My two cents, at least.

God doesn’t like it. Period.

Well, I know that is what you believe… and what most who think of the Bible in the same terms as you believe. Like you said - whatever lets you sleep better at night.

Personally, I find it discomfiting to hear anyone speak for God. I don’t even believe in God, but I think if I were He, I wouldn’t want people telling each other what I like or don’t like (with or without an authoritative “Period”.) From a more human perspective, it seems kind of dangerous for someone to presume to know the mind and will of God - doing so seems to bootstrap mere human opinion into something far more important.

I think, even if I were a conservative “Bible-believing” Christian, I would say, “I personally believe that God doesn’t approve of ‘X’, based on my beliefs about the Bible, and my understanding of what it means, but being just a person, and having no inside information into the mind of God, I could easily be wrong about that”.

Personally, I find it discomfiting to hear anyone speak for God.

There are no misinterpretations and I’m not speaking for God. That’s left up to John Edwards, after all.

I could say all the wishy-washy stuff that you hinted (but, yet, man made global warming is a FACT, baby!), which means that I take the words in the bible as mere suggestions & open to endless interpretations. Sorry, I do not. Many things can be interpreted by the individual and I honestly believe that. What one person says is a sin based on one reading may not be sin to me based on my reading. I think a lot of it resides in one’s heart & their relationship with God on the matter.

Not too many ways to spin “thou shalt not commit adultery”, though. He pretty much gave us the inside information on that one…etched in stone, one might say.

If I could weigh in here, I would like to ask a couple uh ????. Smijer, it seems to me your beef is not with the Southern Baptist who are staying with the stuff on what they believe. Isn’t your real problem that you don’t like what the Bible has to say and you are angry with those who dare to believe it and live by it? Aren’t you interpreting as hatred the audacity of the SBC in following what they confess and believe to be right in the sight of the Lord? Also, how can you ignore the many benevolent deeds done by this same church and make such accusations against so many people? If I go looking for hatred, I find it in your hatred of fundamental Christians (or maybe just Baptist) and your hatred of Fox News. Would you prefer that the voices of all those who disagree with you be silenced? Would you like to see Christians forced to go against their beliefs and either have to perform gay marriages or abortions or not be given the status of a church? Sounds suspiously like the former USSR to me. (By the way, if a person believes that marriage is between a man and a woman who are not closely related, the argument can be made that all people have the same rights to a legalized marriage. The government will not legally allow me to marry my father.) Just think about it, that is all I am saying.

Snooks, I don’t hate you or any of the folks you mentioned (though I border on it with FN)… Most of my family (whom I love, one & all) are fundamentalist Christians, including a fair number of Southern Baptists. I don’t like some of your ways of thinking - and I don’t like your meanness or bigotry toward certain stripes of “sinners”, but I wouldn’t dream of silencing you. Have I deleted any of your comments here? That would be a simple thing, if I wanted to silence you.

On the other hand, going back to Fox News, while I wouldn’t have them silenced, I would like for everyone to know just exactly what kind of malarkey they are selling. They have a right to sell it, but buyers have a right to beware, too… and if I can help clue in a potential buyer, then I give myself a pat on the back.

No, churches shouldn’t be forced to perform any kind of ceremony their dogma forbids. But the state sells marriage license, and they should provide equal treatment under the law.

I don’t think the church or anyone else should be forced to do right - but I do think they should learn to do right. That’s why I talk about it.

One last thing & I’ll move on…since you said that this was, in part, a shot at Fox News. And if so, and correct me if I’m wrong, Dean was riding high atop the polls at the time (IIRC) and Huckabee is near nowhereland in the GOP polls. A better comparison of pointing at FNC trying to take down a Dem while staying silent about a GOPer would be to look at someone in a similar position in the Dem polls back in ‘04….well, that’d be Kucinich who is a truther & that STILL hasn’t gotten the coverage Dean got, for good reason: Kucinich is as close to a politician being a kook as one can get and thus, he’s getting the coverage that a kook gets. Thus far, Huckabee is a nobody & is getting nobody coverage.

Should the front-runner in the GOP race (right now, that’s Christianist Rudy Giuliani, since I read somewhere that the wacko religious fundy right is running the GOP) make a gaffe, rest assured that they’ll get media coverage, including FNC.

I’ll gladly concede that point, RW - well made.

Really? Crap, let me print this out & frame it. I usually fumble & bumble around long enough to stay just short of “embarrassing” (while often crossing that line). Score one for the folks who keep up with Dennis Kucinich!

BTW, I’ll also take credit for steering this conversation off topic & onto gay marriage. Hey, I have a streak going….

LOL, sometimes I make myself laugh, if no one else…

And, Dennis K is a whole ‘nuther ball of wax.