Give their pigs a happy life
That line is from this UU sermon on ethical eating. It is surreal and optimistic, and I like it. I think more swine farmers should give their pigs a happy life.
I don’t think any discussion of how and which foods are made is complete without mentioning that Michael Pollan thinks and speaks well on the subject. So, now I’ve added his name & a link.
I’m a tad skeptical of Peter Singer and those who are sometimes characterized as “radical” in the vegan movement. I hope that Reverend Trumbore is, too.
I’m also a tad skeptical of drawing too much from narrow areas of research – here I’m talking about Colin Campbell’s work linking excessive meat protein to cancer. It’s good, but probably incomplete, information.
The reports and science mentioned are good to take into consideration, but the subject is honestly larger and more complex than can be simply digested.
I credit Reverend Trumbore for trying, and I suggest reading his sermon and taking it into consideration.
I’ll likely never be vegetarian again, but I do hope to come to a point where I can seriously improve my eating habits in a way that is more affordable, that is more consistent with an ethical and humane treatment of both people and animals, that is healthier for myself and my family, and that is sustainable for future generations of hungry people.
One approach is to change the ratios of meat and vegetable. One is to (continue to) avoid fast food and to begin to avoid processed food. One is to attempt to raise more of my own food (honey doesn’t want us to get chickens, though). One is to attempt to find affordable alternative food sources that practice better agriculture.
I already know there is much wrong with the way we produce and consume food in America, there is a steep learning curve for me on the various difficult, subtle & complex issues. So another thing is to try learning a tad more about it. And as I do, I’ll try to share with you what I learn.
I do think we all owe it to ourselves to have knowledge of how what we do affects people and animals and to take that knowledge seriously.
Very interesting topic.
First, a few notations on vegans:
One: maybe when I’m old and brittle, so I’ll feel more adaptive, but until that time comes I can honestly say that I’ve never seen a vegan – or vegetarian – that I wanted to look like. That look went “out” after we liberated the concentration camps, IMO. [as close to a joke as you can get when the subject is the holocaust.....what, too soon?] I love the great looking Hollywood folks who say “I try to eat a vegarian diet”, which means they eat chicken & fish all the time but don’t declare them ‘real meat’ since they’re not red & so they only partake of steak on rare occasions & then they’re the $80/lb kobe version. Well, vegetarian means no meat. Period. And with that criterian in mind, we’re looking at a scant portion of the population, probably less than 2%. Of that, most look like 75 year old marathon runners who are closer to malnutrition than they are peak condition.
Second: I especially love the pro-choice vegans, which constitutes about 99.5% of its collective. A fertilized human egg is dependent upon the whims of the woman & if discarded, meh. An unfertilized chicken egg? Almost sacrosanct. It’s almost as if some vegetarian said “you know what, we get almost no protein whatsoever in our diets anyway and we couldn’t lift anything heavier than our shoes if our lives depended upon it, why not go ahead & declare the last remaining good-tasting source of protein – which is cheap and in tremendous abundance – off limits due to our collective consciousness? That way we can overpay for crap-tasting food that makes us look like Chinese dissidents held in political prisons, but at least we’ll feel great about ourselves emotionally.”
Oh, and the female Hollywood vegetarians that look phenomenal? A. Good thing for them silicone isn’t derived from animal fat. B. They’re genetically gifted in much the same manner as most NBA centers were blessed to be 7-feet tall; One in a hundred-thousand are given those cheekbones, natural beauty & metabolism. We’re all going to look like Kate Hepburn & Hank Fonda if we’re lucky to live as long as they did, so I see no reason to rush to that conclusion long before it’s time.
Now, for the crux of the article: I, for one, would most certainly be willing (in most cases) to pay extra for meat that wasn’t raised on a factory farm. I know, like the links stated, that “free range” means about as much as “fat free” does on labels: they may not be as advertised. Look, I’m the biggest animal lover around but I also know that the concept of raising a chicken so that it has as much freedom to move as it pleases, eats a steady diet of clean corn and mix and then dies of natural causes right before its taken to the processing plant is the act of being naive. Good if it could be true, but t’ain’t so. A good marketing campaign: advertise that you do NOT sell products that are raised on factory farms. It’s worked for Ben & Jerry’s, a delicious product that is as overpriced an item as you’ll find in any grocery. They’ve certainly been a successful biz despite swaying from the ‘cheapest’ denominator (although it appears that they’re d*cks when it comes to screwing over their franchise holders). I’d go out of my way to buy Jimmy Dean sausage or bacon if it cost, say, 20% more but maintained a more animal-friendly environment than, say, Oscar Mayer. I won’t buy it if it’s like so many of the ‘made from recycled material’ products that are out there: vastly overpriced and lower quality. I’m ethical, but also logical. That trashbag made from recycled material isn’t worth paying 75% more than Glad, so I’m not going to do it just to make myself feel better. I guess it’ll depend on the overhead for the animal habitats involved.
One thing I’ve learned after all that research into diets & fitness (you know the story, already) is that – provided a normal health history already, meaning no problems with high blood pressure or diabetes or the like – if you’re active, you can eat whatever you want. If you jog 3/miles per day, 5 days per week & you enjoy hamburgers every day, you’re going to be fine but you’ll likely have a small belly/gut if you don’t watch the caloric intake. The more active you are, the “worse” you can eat. If you hit the gym a few days per week & participate in some cardio activities as well (playing softball & watching NASCAR are not cardio activities, gents), you can eat red meat & not worry (big “blood pressure” caveat, here).
Anecdotal: I don’t have high blood pressure – was scared a bit earlier this year, but it was a false alarm, and I don’t have any problems with cholesterol. So, since I’m an avid weight lifter & need the creatine that steak provides, I have red meat at least 3 times per week. The rest of the time, I have either chicken or fish. Since I strive to get 250 grams of protein every day (every……@#$%ing……day) and I can only choked down a few protein shakes/drinks, the reasonable alternatives are meat & eggs. So, I’m sensible about it & get low-fat ($$) meat & take out the yolks on 75% of my eggs, so I can keep the fat & cholesterol down. Mind you: my daily diet is rather massive, due to my 240 lb frame, so I can eat like an NFL linebacker and ‘get away with it’ because I stay active. Were I sentient, yeah, I’d be a whale with 180/140 blood pressure and a cholesterol count of about 400 (both of which are largely hereditary, btw).
What I’m saying is “eating less meat” isn’t necessarily a healthy diet, but it’ll depend on what your goals are. “You” being a general term. Your pictures tells me you’re (you, smijer) genetically gifted with a rapid-fire metabolism (a guess….am I correct?) so you can eat whatever you want & don’t have to worry about looking like Charles Barkley (unless your cholesterol is a problem, which is the case with many who have fast metabolisms). If that is the case, then you can most certainly follow a red-meat-free diet and enjoy the food because you can lather on the flavorings for your creamed corn, baked beans, potatoes, etc. Someone like me, who needs > 2,500 calories per day just to maintain but also needs 250 grams of protein while also getting LESS than 3,000 calories or else my waist will grow exponentially. Find me a vegetarian or vegan diet where I can get 250 grams of protein DAILY without getting more than 3,000 calories and I’m on board. {answer: it doesn’t exist unless I do nothing but drink protein shakes and….well, that’s it}
You & I are in a good position by living in the south. I know some farmers/ranchers personally, so if I wanted I could easily call them up and purchase the meat from any individual cow/pig/chicken of my choosing. The problem with that is that I’d pay exponentially more for that, the processing and the storage, than I would if I just buy my meat from the local Publix.
[Note: being raised in a dirt-poor family, I know that times have changed on this topic. We raised chickens for one (long) year. They weren't each given a room by themselves, of course, and they were sure packed into those houses, but they could easily roam around. It was about like visiting Six Flags on a very busy day. We also raised pigs & my grandfather raised cattle. All the space that either could want....wasn't a problem. Which is why I say a smart marketing campaign for an animal friendly company (an oxymoron, of course, sine they'll be slaughtered & processed for my belly, but you know what I mean) would pay off. There IS a market out there. Whole Foods is overpriced, but successful, for example. Same with the aforementioned Ben & Jerry's. It can be done. One more thing, I have one family member that is a practicing vegetarian. As a teenager, she was a stacked 36-24-36 knockout, the type that made young boys rush to the bathroom when she pranced by, if you catch my drift andIthinkyoudo. Now: if she were 2 inches shorter, she'd be perfectly round. Strange, huh? Apparently, donuts, potato chips & candy is vegetarian, as well]
BTW, the healthiest protein source out there: venison. And we *have* to keep the deer population under control, especially in the south. So, if the goal is healthy food & a true free range situation, then most of these proponents would endorse true venison from deer hunters. That IS THE MOST LOGICAL thing to do and deer meat tastes very good.
BTW, I have something on the religion thread, but I’m going to reread my answer as it is sorta hard to follow (what? You can’t follow your own comment, Ricky? Nope)
You know I have to say something about this… of course I have known some Vegans for whom that “almost sacrosanct” is an apt descriptor. And of course I see the disconnect. But even from the point of view of a non-vegan non-ethical eater, there is a difference in terms of the amount of cruelty involved in producing it. I know you know that, but it with veganism as with much else, it’s easy to overlook one set of concerns and focus entirely on “obvious” things like what “speicies” and whether the chromosomes are single or double stranded.
FWIW if I did get permission to have chickens it would be for the eggs. Even a cramped hen house is better than a factory farm by orders of magnitude. Plus there’s the fun of feeding the chickens & growing the chicks. I doubt I would ever raise chickens to kill & eat – I doubt I could make it cost-effective & I’m not thrilled at the notion of having to do that last bit of dirty work myself. My dad-in-law already raises them, though & we get most of ours from him. Those I eat in good conscience – those hens have a well appointed pen and house.
The rest – it’s like I said… a complicated issue. But I do feel I need to do better.
There are nutritional and health concerns apart from general metabolic ones.. there is pollution, there are toxins, and there is the possibility (as the article in the sermon mentioned) of increasing cancer susceptibility. Honestly, nutrition and health are the least of my concerns. I’ve never put the kind of work I should have done into maintaining my body… If I did, I probably wouldn’t start with food. You’re right… too right. I cannot gain weight no matter how hard I try. I can gorge myself every day with protein drinks and creatine and sometimes put on 5 or 10 pounds. But left to its own devices, my body will always find a way to make me little again. I don’t mind too much. I’ve always been little, so I’m kind of used to it.
The biggest issues I’m feeling are those of cruelty and sustainability. And I do want to do something different to reduce my contribution to the cruelty and pollution. You’re right – we have some advantages from living away from the city… there’s a chance we can know some of the people who grow our food. We can get venison from our sporting neighbors (though I have rarely done so… and I’m not the kind of guy who’s going to be out in 10 degrees at five o’ clock in the morning looking for lunch)… but you’re also right that alternatives may not be as advertized, are sometimes of inferior quality (though usually not, really, except sometimes in terms of shelf-life) and are often overpriced compared to the more cheaply but unethically produced factory meats & vegetables. That’s partly a problem with “the system” and I have no idea how to fix it. I’m willing to start with trying to be aware of it and to try and decrease my own contributions to the problem where I can reasonably do so.
Looking forward to your edition of the “meme”.
If you’ve been reading me, you know this is becoming a hobby horse of mine. I have changed the ratio of meat/vegetables that I eat, I have lost 40 pounds in the past year, I have given up processed food, I have started buying mostly (more expensive) local produce and meat, and I am NOT spending more on food than I used to.
Meat is expensive. Eat less, and you’ll spend less — unless you also switch to more expensive, local, humane meat, and then you’re only trading costs. But, most Americans eat way too much meat, so eating a bit less and paying a bit more is a healthy step forward, and the costs end up balancing out. Plus, you get the the health benefits of eating grain-fed (vs. corn-fed) meat, and, if you’re concerned about food-borne illness, then eating meat that comes from a processor who deals with only one animal at a time is going to improve your chances of avoiding scary diseases.
But don’t get me started…
I cannot gain weight no matter how hard I try. I can gorge myself every day with protein drinks and creatine and sometimes put on 5 or 10 pounds.
A description of my life up until the age of 25-ish. I played basketball and tried as hard as I possibly could to put on weight “naturally” (no supplements, just via food) and I’d burn it off as soon as I ate the high-calorie meals. Trust me, I know all too well. That’s why I put the “every @#$%ing day” part above, as that’s what it’s taken to both put on some size AND take away some of the fat that came about because of that venture. Now, I constantly battle an expanding mid-section while not losing any of the size that I’ve gained elsewhere. A never ending battle, I might say.
Plus there’s the fun of feeding the chickens & growing the chicks.
A traumatic experience from my youth was having my own set of 6 chicks & raising them in a pen in our backyard. Came home one day & my dad was “processing” them because they’d matured. Killed me, inside, as I’d grown to love those little animals. Actually, I mentioned that to him earlier this year & he chuckled and said “well, you know now where that food comes from and you know that I was unemployed at the time and we couldn’t afford to buy chicken”. As I told him then, sure, he was right and did nothing wrong. But that 9 year old boy sure didn’t think so at the time.
No way I could be a farmer/rancher. I’d get too attached. Always do.
Meat is expensive. Eat less, and you’ll spend less
Very true. The best shape I was ever in came after a fitness program that entailed high intake of protein via clean meat & protein shakes. To be honest, I could literally eat that diet all the time, even though it was a sacrifice to do without so much of the great tasting stuff out there (white potatoes, most beans, most fruit, all juices, etc. And that’s not including the ‘good stuff’ like chocolate, pizza, beer, etc) but I just couldn’t afford it. The 12 month process, which both my wife & I undertook and had unbelievable results, left us with an average of over $700/month in grocery bills. That didn’t include meals where we dined out, just receipts from Kroger/Publix/Costo. $2100 in three months is just too much to justify for groceries.
Worked, though. Worked like a charm. The last time I had a six-pack was at the end of that program.
I need the protein, though, so I needs me my meat. Protein shakes are processed, too.
Oh, and honesty compels me to admit that the tastes ranks higher than protein on my “why I eat it” list. Not the reason for the volume, which is probably more than both of you combined. But, yeah, I enjoy the steak more than the salad/potato/bread. Marinate a ribeye or sirloin right & grill it the proper way and you can have a moderately priced meal at home that tastes just as good as something you’d pick up at Longhorn’s for a lot more money.
Costco (left leaning company) has great steaks, btw.
That’s partly a problem with “the system” and I have no idea how to fix it.
I can understand the high prices for some of the manufactured items for recycled goods; startup prices & depreciation for new equipment add a lot to the price of goods. But, people pay a LOT OF MONEY for high quality beef. The stuff Limbaugh advertises on his show, Allen Brothers, is so far priced out of my budget that getting a Ferrari is more plausible. There’s no way that the stuff Allen puts out there is processed crap that came from animals that were stacked on top of each other while they lived. No, that’s the high quality stuff, and there’s a market for it. Not the majority of folks, especially in this economy, but there is a market for quality stuff. The right marketing campaign could work. No, I’m not going to give my kids $3 hot dogs in order to comfort my conscience, but I most certainly will pay more than market value if I can get something more in return than feeling better about myself.
The guy at Whole Foods is the shining example of this. Done the right way, it can work.
Should be “12 week process” above.
Please?
It is an interesting topic.
Just last week I had sent the link that Charlie Talbert left in the comments section of my Meat Hand post to some family members. My wife and my sisters all emailed me just raising hell that I would send something like that out. They thought watching it was horrible so they did not get all of the way through it. But they will sure eat meat just as much as I will.
My youngest daughter would not eat a chicken sandwich for months after seeing a load of chickens on a truck on the way to be processed. The way they had them stacked in the boxes just broke her heart.
My eldest daughter, who I love dearly and would take a bullet for but who I also believe could probably work in the office at a concentration camp did not see the big deal. She says if you are going to feed 300 million people hamburgers every day there is no other way to do it.
But as for me I love meat. What can I say? But believe me my meat consumption is way, way, way down from what it has been in the past. The only time I eat meat is on the weekends. But on the weekends I don’t screw around with a piece the size of a deck of cards either.
As a younger man I took part in hog killin’s. Shoot ‘em. Gut ‘em. Drop them in boiling water and scrape off the hair. We also enjoyed seeing the chickens run around with their heads cut off when that time came. It entertained us. It never occurred to me that what we were doing was cruel.
But watching that link that Charlie sent can change things for you. It is eye opening. It is some horrible, horrible shit. I don’t see how anybody can get up in the morning and go to work at places like that.
But everytime the waitress brings out that plate of ribs I have to admit that I am glad they do.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen any cruelty or harm in killing an animal for food. I am probably a little too citified & tender to actually *do* it, but I have no moral qualms with it. I agree with you – practices such are as documented in Charlie’s video are the ones that really concern me most.
Years ago, in the south, free range chickens had a great life until Sunday at dinner time. I became very traumatized when I was around seven. I was innocently walking along the dusty,unpaved Alabama road (minding my own business). I passed a neighbor’s house and witnessed a chicken having its neck wrung. Now that is a sight I will never forget. The chicken ran around the yard several times – HEADLESS! I still think that chicken’s lives back then were much better than today, but I have not seen anything like that before or since.
How about the headless chicken?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATz3AdbjyRI
[...] talks about ethical eating: I already know there is much wrong with the way we produce and consume food in America, there is a steep learning curve for me on the various difficult, subtle & complex [...]