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	<title>Comments on: Understanding the Thinking Behind Vicarious Punishment</title>
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	<link>http://tete-tete-tete.com/2009/04/understanding-the-thinking-behind-vicarious-punishment/</link>
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		<title>By: jadarm</title>
		<link>http://tete-tete-tete.com/2009/04/understanding-the-thinking-behind-vicarious-punishment/comment-page-1/#comment-4447</link>
		<dc:creator>jadarm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:30:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tete-tete-tete.com/?p=1674#comment-4447</guid>
		<description>Well, with all due respect, if you cant see &quot;my point&quot; from my previous post, then I am just wasting my time here...eh?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, with all due respect, if you cant see &#8220;my point&#8221; from my previous post, then I am just wasting my time here&#8230;eh?</p>
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		<title>By: Theodore A. Jones</title>
		<link>http://tete-tete-tete.com/2009/04/understanding-the-thinking-behind-vicarious-punishment/comment-page-1/#comment-4446</link>
		<dc:creator>Theodore A. Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:28:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tete-tete-tete.com/?p=1674#comment-4446</guid>
		<description>And your point is?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And your point is?</p>
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		<title>By: jadarm</title>
		<link>http://tete-tete-tete.com/2009/04/understanding-the-thinking-behind-vicarious-punishment/comment-page-1/#comment-4445</link>
		<dc:creator>jadarm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:19:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tete-tete-tete.com/?p=1674#comment-4445</guid>
		<description>Mr.Theodore A. Jones

...just give it up dude, you are going to lose. 

Especially going against Mr. Smij...

Now, I have friends on here who are devout Christians, I love them and would never do anything to engage their wrath upon me...but, for arguments sake, I just have to point out a few things here:


1.GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.

GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn&#039;t created until the fourth day.

2. GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.
GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.

3. GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.

4. GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.

5. GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time.
GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.

6. GE 1:31 God was pleased with his creation.
GE 6:5-6 God was not pleased with his creation.
(Note: That God should be displeased is inconsistent with the concept of omniscience.)

7. GE 6:6. EX 32:14, NU 14:20, 1SA 15:35, 2SA 24:16 God does change his mind.
NU 23:19-20, 1SA 15:29, JA 1:17 God does not change his mind.

8. GE 7:1 Noah was righteous.
JB 1:1,8, JB 2:3 Job was righteous.
LK 1:6 Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteous.
JA 5:16 Some men are righteous, (which makes their prayers effective).
1JN 3:6-9 Christians become righteous (or else they are not really Christians).
RO 3:10, 3:23, 1JN 1:8-10 No one was or is righteous.

9. GE 11:9 At Babel, the Lord confused the language of the whole world.
1CO 14:33 Paul says that God is not the author of confusion.

10. GE 15:9, EX 20:24, 29:10-42, LE 1:1-7:38, NU 28:1-29:40, God details sacrificial offerings.
JE 7:21-22 God says he did no such thing.

Source:

http://atheism.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ/Ya&amp;zTi=1&amp;sdn=atheism&amp;cdn=religion&amp;tm=34&amp;f=00&amp;tt=14&amp;bt=1&amp;bts=1&amp;zu=http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr.Theodore A. Jones</p>
<p>&#8230;just give it up dude, you are going to lose. </p>
<p>Especially going against Mr. Smij&#8230;</p>
<p>Now, I have friends on here who are devout Christians, I love them and would never do anything to engage their wrath upon me&#8230;but, for arguments sake, I just have to point out a few things here:</p>
<p>1.GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.</p>
<p>GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn&#8217;t created until the fourth day.</p>
<p>2. GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.<br />
GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.</p>
<p>3. GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.<br />
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.</p>
<p>4. GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created.<br />
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.</p>
<p>5. GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time.<br />
GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.</p>
<p>6. GE 1:31 God was pleased with his creation.<br />
GE 6:5-6 God was not pleased with his creation.<br />
(Note: That God should be displeased is inconsistent with the concept of omniscience.)</p>
<p>7. GE 6:6. EX 32:14, NU 14:20, 1SA 15:35, 2SA 24:16 God does change his mind.<br />
NU 23:19-20, 1SA 15:29, JA 1:17 God does not change his mind.</p>
<p>8. GE 7:1 Noah was righteous.<br />
JB 1:1,8, JB 2:3 Job was righteous.<br />
LK 1:6 Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteous.<br />
JA 5:16 Some men are righteous, (which makes their prayers effective).<br />
1JN 3:6-9 Christians become righteous (or else they are not really Christians).<br />
RO 3:10, 3:23, 1JN 1:8-10 No one was or is righteous.</p>
<p>9. GE 11:9 At Babel, the Lord confused the language of the whole world.<br />
1CO 14:33 Paul says that God is not the author of confusion.</p>
<p>10. GE 15:9, EX 20:24, 29:10-42, LE 1:1-7:38, NU 28:1-29:40, God details sacrificial offerings.<br />
JE 7:21-22 God says he did no such thing.</p>
<p>Source:</p>
<p><a href="http://atheism.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ/Ya&#038;zTi=1&#038;sdn=atheism&#038;cdn=religion&#038;tm=34&#038;f=00&#038;tt=14&#038;bt=1&#038;bts=1&#038;zu=http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html" rel="nofollow">http://atheism.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ/Ya&#038;zTi=1&#038;sdn=atheism&#038;cdn=religion&#038;tm=34&#038;f=00&#038;tt=14&#038;bt=1&#038;bts=1&#038;zu=http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: smijer</title>
		<link>http://tete-tete-tete.com/2009/04/understanding-the-thinking-behind-vicarious-punishment/comment-page-1/#comment-4444</link>
		<dc:creator>smijer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:55:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tete-tete-tete.com/?p=1674#comment-4444</guid>
		<description>I saw them, but I still reason that my logic is intact. And, I hope that others who fear human stories of a ghastly afterlife will also find my logic sound. 

But now, I feel that we are just being argumentative &amp; perhaps we should leave this discussion for one that is more productive. You&#039;re welcome to the last word if you want it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I saw them, but I still reason that my logic is intact. And, I hope that others who fear human stories of a ghastly afterlife will also find my logic sound. </p>
<p>But now, I feel that we are just being argumentative &amp; perhaps we should leave this discussion for one that is more productive. You&#8217;re welcome to the last word if you want it.</p>
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		<title>By: Theodore A. Jones</title>
		<link>http://tete-tete-tete.com/2009/04/understanding-the-thinking-behind-vicarious-punishment/comment-page-1/#comment-4443</link>
		<dc:creator>Theodore A. Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:33:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tete-tete-tete.com/?p=1674#comment-4443</guid>
		<description>See Ex. 34:7, Lk. 20:16-18. So much for your logic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See Ex. 34:7, Lk. 20:16-18. So much for your logic.</p>
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		<title>By: smijer</title>
		<link>http://tete-tete-tete.com/2009/04/understanding-the-thinking-behind-vicarious-punishment/comment-page-1/#comment-4442</link>
		<dc:creator>smijer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:12:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tete-tete-tete.com/?p=1674#comment-4442</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t actually have to hope - I can use logic. If you have two theories (as I&#039;m guessing you do) - one being that God is good, and the other being that God torments people for eternity in hell, then I can deduce that both cannot be true, since the latter is inconsistent with the former. 

If in fact God does torment people in hell for eternity, then it follows inexorably from logic that he is not good.  If he is not good, then you are probably in as much in danger from a capricious and wicked deity as I am. So you had better also hope like hell that your second theory is incorrect. 

I deduce from experience that whatever God may exist is probably not evil, though he may be indifferent. As such, I don&#039;t fear torment after life. 

Another point of logic that might encourage the faint of heart: suffering is an aspect of life.  Death ends life.  Therefore death ends suffering. I&#039;d rather rest on logic than mere &quot;hope&quot;. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t actually have to hope &#8211; I can use logic. If you have two theories (as I&#8217;m guessing you do) &#8211; one being that God is good, and the other being that God torments people for eternity in hell, then I can deduce that both cannot be true, since the latter is inconsistent with the former. </p>
<p>If in fact God does torment people in hell for eternity, then it follows inexorably from logic that he is not good.  If he is not good, then you are probably in as much in danger from a capricious and wicked deity as I am. So you had better also hope like hell that your second theory is incorrect. </p>
<p>I deduce from experience that whatever God may exist is probably not evil, though he may be indifferent. As such, I don&#8217;t fear torment after life. </p>
<p>Another point of logic that might encourage the faint of heart: suffering is an aspect of life.  Death ends life.  Therefore death ends suffering. I&#8217;d rather rest on logic than mere &#8220;hope&#8221;. <img src='http://tete-tete-tete.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Theodore A. Jones</title>
		<link>http://tete-tete-tete.com/2009/04/understanding-the-thinking-behind-vicarious-punishment/comment-page-1/#comment-4441</link>
		<dc:creator>Theodore A. Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:47:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tete-tete-tete.com/?p=1674#comment-4441</guid>
		<description>You had better hope like hell I am not right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You had better hope like hell I am not right.</p>
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		<title>By: smijer</title>
		<link>http://tete-tete-tete.com/2009/04/understanding-the-thinking-behind-vicarious-punishment/comment-page-1/#comment-4439</link>
		<dc:creator>smijer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:34:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tete-tete-tete.com/?p=1674#comment-4439</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t write for disagreement or for agreement.  You asked questions &amp; I tried to answer them to the best of my ability. Far be it from me to argue with someone who has special insider knowledge of life after death. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t write for disagreement or for agreement.  You asked questions &amp; I tried to answer them to the best of my ability. Far be it from me to argue with someone who has special insider knowledge of life after death. <img src='http://tete-tete-tete.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Theodore A. Jones</title>
		<link>http://tete-tete-tete.com/2009/04/understanding-the-thinking-behind-vicarious-punishment/comment-page-1/#comment-4438</link>
		<dc:creator>Theodore A. Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:14:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tete-tete-tete.com/?p=1674#comment-4438</guid>
		<description>&quot;It is NOT those who hear the law who are righteous in God&#039;s sight, but it is those who OBEY the law who will be declared righteous.&quot; Rom. 2:13
I did not write you for the purpose of agreement. But on the other side of the grave I know you will not be able to disagree with me. Your major worry is Rom. 2:13 for the law of God had been changed and Paul is writing about this change.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It is NOT those who hear the law who are righteous in God&#8217;s sight, but it is those who OBEY the law who will be declared righteous.&#8221; Rom. 2:13<br />
I did not write you for the purpose of agreement. But on the other side of the grave I know you will not be able to disagree with me. Your major worry is Rom. 2:13 for the law of God had been changed and Paul is writing about this change.</p>
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		<title>By: smijer</title>
		<link>http://tete-tete-tete.com/2009/04/understanding-the-thinking-behind-vicarious-punishment/comment-page-1/#comment-4437</link>
		<dc:creator>smijer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 14:41:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tete-tete-tete.com/?p=1674#comment-4437</guid>
		<description>I think that Romans 5:20 is not talking about the same issue as Hebrews 7:12.  Secondly, I think you are relying on a poor English translation of Romans 5:20 - &quot;added&quot; doesn&#039;t really fit what Paul is saying in my mind. The KJV says &quot;the law entered&quot;. Other translations say &quot;came in&quot;. I believe that this refers to the law as it was &quot;given&quot; (as that was understood in Paul&#039;s day). The interpretation I give is that Paul is explaining the role of the &quot;old&quot; law as it applies to the &quot;new&quot; scheme of Grace that he is formulating in his letters. Basically he is saying that the &quot;old&quot; law was given so that people would be aware of their shortcomings and their need for grace. 

Hebrews was likely by some other author with a somewhat different agenda (though with sympathy for Paul&#039;s viewpoint generally speaking). Here, the author is arguing for the imperfection of Mosaic law and its replacement by a new scheme on the grounds that, historically, the law had been &quot;changed&quot; since Moses had given it - with the introduction of non-Levitical priests, and on the grounds that it was short of &quot;perfection&quot;. Hebrews is arguing for a new &quot;Covenant&quot; to replace the Abrahamic covenant, which was only partial, to that author&#039;s mind. 

And that&#039;s my best exegesis, but take it with a grain of salt, because I&#039;m no expert!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that Romans 5:20 is not talking about the same issue as Hebrews 7:12.  Secondly, I think you are relying on a poor English translation of Romans 5:20 &#8211; &#8220;added&#8221; doesn&#8217;t really fit what Paul is saying in my mind. The KJV says &#8220;the law entered&#8221;. Other translations say &#8220;came in&#8221;. I believe that this refers to the law as it was &#8220;given&#8221; (as that was understood in Paul&#8217;s day). The interpretation I give is that Paul is explaining the role of the &#8220;old&#8221; law as it applies to the &#8220;new&#8221; scheme of Grace that he is formulating in his letters. Basically he is saying that the &#8220;old&#8221; law was given so that people would be aware of their shortcomings and their need for grace. </p>
<p>Hebrews was likely by some other author with a somewhat different agenda (though with sympathy for Paul&#8217;s viewpoint generally speaking). Here, the author is arguing for the imperfection of Mosaic law and its replacement by a new scheme on the grounds that, historically, the law had been &#8220;changed&#8221; since Moses had given it &#8211; with the introduction of non-Levitical priests, and on the grounds that it was short of &#8220;perfection&#8221;. Hebrews is arguing for a new &#8220;Covenant&#8221; to replace the Abrahamic covenant, which was only partial, to that author&#8217;s mind. </p>
<p>And that&#8217;s my best exegesis, but take it with a grain of salt, because I&#8217;m no expert!</p>
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